CO129-213 - Governor Sir Bowen - 1883 [12] — Page 254

CO129 Colonial Office Hong Kong Records 理藩院香港檔案 All AI Reviewed

253

simply to register the conclusions of the Secretary of State, when proposals come before us with the authority of the Secretary of State involving the expenditure of public money; there should be a distinct understanding that every member of this Council, official or otherwise, should be allowed to vote according to his convictions. I must say in reading the correspondence laid before the Finance Committee it did appear to me this proposal for a grant of $6,000 to St. Joseph's College came before the Secretary of State with the approval of the executive Government of the colony. I would submit, sir, with reference to this, that I think it would be a very great relief to yourself from that delicate and flattering importunity with which I know our Roman Catholic friends are so apt to make their proposals, publicly and privately, if you were to refer all such applications in the first instance to the members of the Council. As regards the merits of the application itself, I am not prepared to offer any objection to the original vote of $5,000, set apart I believe by the Educational Department of the Government under the grant-in-aid system, but I do see great reason to object to the extra vote of $1,000 added with the approval of the Secretary of State. Nothing, so far as I can see, in the letter of Bishop Raimondi to the Secretary of State justifies this increase in the grant. He is pleading on behalf of a wealthy corporation and cannot say he requires this money from any want of funds. When I say I do not object to this vote because it is proposed under the grant-in-aid system I wish to guard myself against expressing any opinion on that system. I consider grants-in-aid to denominational schools are all very well so long as the educational test to be applied as the qualification for the grant has to be settled by the representatives of the ratepayers, who are supposed to be benefited by the grant, but it is a very different thing when that educational test is settled by what appears to me to be something in the nature of a concordat between the Governor of the Colony and an ecclesiastical hierarchy. I should like to ask my hon. friend opposite (Dr. Stewart), who probably knows more about education in the colony than any other person, whether he is sure the large Portuguese community, who are the supposed beneficiaries of this grant, are entirely satisfied with the character of the education they receive from such institutions as St. Joseph's College. In putting this question I am not actuated by any desire to bring about a discussion on grants-in-aid, but I wish to show good cause why every grant of public money in this colony should be made the subject of full and free discussion on the part of every member of this Council. I know, sir, you have said over and over again that you see desirous the representatives of the ratepayers should have control of the moneys derived from taxation, and I hope you will be able to give the Council some assurance to-day that in making votes of public funds it shall always be done after free discussion in this Council, and not under the dictation of some authority superior to us.

The COLONIAL SECRETARY—Sir, I was not in the colony when the meeting of the Finance Committee was held at which the discussion of this vote took place; otherwise I should have been able to explain to my hon. friend the reasons which induced me when I was Acting Administrator of the Government last year to refer to the Secretary of State instead of the Council in the first place the application I received from the managers of this school. That reason is to be found in a dispatch of the Secretary of State of 10th November, 1879, on the subject of education, which had occupied the attention of the Colonial Office for some considerable time. As this dispatch has not been published I think it might be well to read two or three extracts for the information of my hon. friend—

The expenditure upon education from public funds is considerable, but the whole ground is far from covered, and for this reason if for no other it is essential both to maintain the existing agencies (i.e., the Central School and the remainder of the Government system) and also as far as possible to encourage voluntary effort.

The other extract is this:—

I desire also that all grants proposed to be made in aid of other than Government schools may be submitted to the Secretary of State for approval before any promise is made.

I thought it my duty, under the instructions contained in this dispatch, to refer to the Secretary of State the application received from the managers of the new school. The application for a grant-in-aid, which was for $14,400, I accordingly referred to the Secretary of State with all information necessary on the subject, and in reply he said he had no objection to grant $5,000; but on a further application by Bishop Raimondi to your Excellency, your Excellency in Council decided it was desirable to increase the vote to $6,000. I see no objection at all to the adoption in future of the course advocated by the hon. member of laying all votes and applications before the Council before they are sent to the Secretary of State, especially as we shall soon have a larger number of unofficial members. I think there is no objection at all to that.

His EXCELLENCY—None at all. I entirely agree with the hon. member that the standing orders in force to regulate the proceedings of the Legislatures in other Crown Colonies should be introduced also in Hongkong, and that all votes of public money should be for the future considered in the first instance in the reconstituted Legislative Council.

Hon. F. STEWART—I am not in a position to answer the question put to me by the hon. member (Mr. Johnson). St. Joseph's College was begun after I had finished my work in the Educational Department, and I have had no opportunity of finding out what the opinion of the Portuguese community may be with regard to the education given at St. Joseph's College.

The motion for the approval of the votes was then put and carried nem. con.

NATURALISATION.

Bills for the naturalisation of Lai Fong, Wong Shing, H. J. Rodrigues, and J. A. Carvalho, were, on the motion of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, seconded by the COLONIAL SECRETARY, read a first time.

PIER AND WHARF CONSTRUCTION BILL (PRIVATE BILL).

Hon. F. B. JOHNSON—Sir, I ask leave to introduce and read a first time an Ordinance to authorise myself, as representing my firm, to construct certain piers and wharves in the harbour of Victoria.

Hon. P. RYRIE—I have great pleasure in seconding.

The Bill was read a first time.

TRAMWAYS AMENDMENT ORDINANCE.

On the motion of the Hon. F. B. JOHNSON, seconded by the Hon. P. RYRIE, a Bill for the amendment of the Tramways Ordinance, 1883, was read a first time.

A QUESTION OF ORDER.

Hon. F. B. JOHNSON said he had given notice to the clerk of Councils of his intention to introduce an Ordinance, and to ask that it be read a first time, to enable Mr. C. P. Chater to construct piers and wharves in the harbour.

It appeared the notice had been sent to the clerk only the previous day, and a long discussion ensued as to whether under the standing orders the motion could be made at the present meeting.

HIS EXCELLENCY said he intended to call a meeting of the Council next week, and, further, that one of the first steps he would take in the reconstituted Council would be to appoint a committee to revise the standing orders and to bring them into conformity with those prevailing in other colonies. He asked Mr. Johnson if the Bill could wait for a few days and be read at the next meeting.

Icept, of course, in cases of urgency or of special instructions, H.M's. Government, from H. Mon:

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4 253 simply to register the conclusions of the Secretary of State, when proposals come before us with the authority of the Secretary of State involving the expenditure of public money; there should be a distinct understanding that every member of this Council, official or otherwise, should be allowed to vote according to his convictions. I must say in reading the correspondence laid before the Finance Committee it did appear to me this proposal for a grant of $6,000 to St. Joseph's College came before the Secretary of State with the approval of the executive Government of the colony. I would submit, sir, with reference to this, that I think it would be a very great relief to yourself from that delicate and flattering importunity with which I know our Roman Catholic friends are so apt to make their proposals, publicly and privately, if you were to refer all such applications in the first instance to the members of the Council. As regards the merits of the application itself, I am not prepared to offer any objection to the original vote of $5,000, set apart I believe by the Educational Department of the Government under the grant-in-aid system, but I do see great reason to object to the extra vote of $1,000 added with the approval of the Secretary of State. Nothing, so far as I can see, in the letter of Bishop Raimondi to the Secretary of State justifies this increase in the grant. He is pleading on behalf of a wealthy corporation and cannot say he requires this money from any want of funds. When I say I do not object to this vote because it is proposed under the grant-in-aid system I wish to guard myself against expressing any opinion on that system. I consider grants-in-aid to denominational schools are all very well so long as the educational test to be applied as the qualification for the grant has to be settled by the representatives of the ratepayers, who are supposed to be benefited by the grant, but it is a very different thing when that educational test is settled by what appears to me to be something in the nature of a concordat between the Governor of the Colony and an ecclesiastical hierarchy. I should like to ask my hon. friend opposite (Dr. Stewart), who probably knows more about education in the colony than any other person, whether he is sure the large Portuguese community, who are the supposed beneficiaries of this grant, are entirely satisfied with the character of the education they receive from such institutions as St. Joseph's College. In putting this question I am not actuated by any desire to bring about a discussion on grants-in-aid, but I wish to show good cause why every grant of public money in this colony should be made the subject of full and free discussion on the part of every member of this Council. I know, sir, you have said over and over again that you see desirous the representatives of the ratepayers should have control of the moneys derived from taxation, and I hope you will be able to give the Council some assurance to-day that in making votes of public funds it shall always be done after free discussion in this Council, and not under the dictation of some authority superior to us. The COLONIAL SECRETARY—Sir, I was not in the colony when the meeting of the Finance Committee was held at which the discussion of this vote took place; otherwise I should have been able to explain to my hon. friend the reasons which induced me when I was Acting Administrator of the Government last year to refer to the Secretary of State instead of the Council in the first place the application I received from the managers of this school. That reason is to be found in a dispatch of the Secretary of State of 10th November, 1879, on the subject of education, which had occupied the attention of the Colonial Office for some considerable time. As this dispatch has not been published I think it might be well to read two or three extracts for the information of my hon. friend— The expenditure upon education from public funds is considerable, but the whole ground is far from covered, and for this reason if for no other it is essential both to maintain the existing agencies (i.e., the Central School and the remainder of the Government system) and also as far as possible to encourage voluntary effort. The other extract is this:— I desire also that all grants proposed to be made in aid of other than Government schools may be submitted to the Secretary of State for approval before any promise is made. I thought it my duty, under the instructions contained in this dispatch, to refer to the Secretary of State the application received from the managers of the new school. The application for a grant-in-aid, which was for $14,400, I accordingly referred to the Secretary of State with all information necessary on the subject, and in reply he said he had no objection to grant $5,000; but on a further application by Bishop Raimondi to your Excellency, your Excellency in Council decided it was desirable to increase the vote to $6,000. I see no objection at all to the adoption in future of the course advocated by the hon. member of laying all votes and applications before the Council before they are sent to the Secretary of State, especially as we shall soon have a larger number of unofficial members. I think there is no objection at all to that. His EXCELLENCY—None at all. I entirely agree with the hon. member that the standing orders in force to regulate the proceedings of the Legislatures in other Crown Colonies should be introduced also in Hongkong, and that all votes of public money should be for the future considered in the first instance in the reconstituted Legislative Council. Hon. F. STEWART—I am not in a position to answer the question put to me by the hon. member (Mr. Johnson). St. Joseph's College was begun after I had finished my work in the Educational Department, and I have had no opportunity of finding out what the opinion of the Portuguese community may be with regard to the education given at St. Joseph's College. The motion for the approval of the votes was then put and carried nem. con. NATURALISATION. Bills for the naturalisation of Lai Fong, Wong Shing, H. J. Rodrigues, and J. A. Carvalho, were, on the motion of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, seconded by the COLONIAL SECRETARY, read a first time. PIER AND WHARF CONSTRUCTION BILL (PRIVATE BILL). Hon. F. B. JOHNSON—Sir, I ask leave to introduce and read a first time an Ordinance to authorise myself, as representing my firm, to construct certain piers and wharves in the harbour of Victoria. Hon. P. RYRIE—I have great pleasure in seconding. The Bill was read a first time. TRAMWAYS AMENDMENT ORDINANCE. On the motion of the Hon. F. B. JOHNSON, seconded by the Hon. P. RYRIE, a Bill for the amendment of the Tramways Ordinance, 1883, was read a first time. A QUESTION OF ORDER. Hon. F. B. JOHNSON said he had given notice to the clerk of Councils of his intention to introduce an Ordinance, and to ask that it be read a first time, to enable Mr. C. P. Chater to construct piers and wharves in the harbour. It appeared the notice had been sent to the clerk only the previous day, and a long discussion ensued as to whether under the standing orders the motion could be made at the present meeting. HIS EXCELLENCY said he intended to call a meeting of the Council next week, and, further, that one of the first steps he would take in the reconstituted Council would be to appoint a committee to revise the standing orders and to bring them into conformity with those prevailing in other colonies. He asked Mr. Johnson if the Bill could wait for a few days and be read at the next meeting. Icept, of course, in cases of urgency or of special instructions, H.M's. Government, from H. Mon:

Baseline (Original)

4 253 simply to register the conclusions of the Secretary of State, when proposals come before us with the authority of the Secretary of State involving the expenditure of publia mousy; there should be a distinct understanding that every member of this Council, oflleial or otherwise, should bo allowed to vote according to his convictions. I must say in reading the correspondence laid be- fore the Finance Committee it did appear to mo this proposal for a grant of $6,000 to St. Joseph's College came before the Secretary of State with the approval of the executive Government of the colony. I would submit, sir, with reference to this, that I think it would be a very great relief to yourself from that delicato aud flattering importunity with which I know our Rowan Catholic friends are se apt to make their proposals, publicly and privately, if you were to rafer all such applications in the first instance to the members of the Connoil. As regards the merits of the application itself, I am not prepar ed to offer any objection to the original vote of $5,000, set apart I believe by the Educational Department of the Government under the grant. in-aid system, but I do ses great reason to object to the extra voto of $1,000 added with the ap proval of the Secretary of State. Nothing. so far as I can see, in the letter of Bishop Rai- mondi to the Secretary of State justifies this increase in the graut. He is pleading on behalf of a wealthy corporation and cannot say he requires this money from any want of funds. When I say I do not object to this vote be mUSA it is proposed nuder the grant-in-aid system I wish to guard myself against expressing any opinion on that system. I consider grants-in- aid to denominational schools are all very well so long as the educational tost to be applied as the qualification for the grant has to be settled by the representatives of the ratepayers, who are supposed to be benefited by the grant, but it is a very different thing when that educational test is settled by what appones to me to be something in the nature of a con. oordat hetween the Governor of the Colony and an ecclesiastical hierarchy. I should like to ask my hon. friond opposita (Dr. Stewart), who probably knows mure about education in the colony than any other person, whether he is sace the large Portuguese community, who are the supposed beneficiaires of this grant, are entirely satisfied with the character of the education they receive from such institutions as St. Joseph's i College. In putting this quastion I am not ac- tuated by any desire to bring about a discussion ou grants-in-aid, but I wish to show good eanse why every grant of public maney in this colony should be made the subject of full aud froe discussion on the part of every member of this Council. I know, sir, you have said over and over again that you see desirous the repre- sentatives of the ratepayers should have control of the rooneys derived from taxation, aud I hope you will be able to give the Council some as- surabos to-day that in making votes of pablio fuads it shall always ha dona after free discussion in this Council, and not under the dictation of some anthority superior to us. The COLONIAL SECRETAUT-Sir, I was not is the colony when the meeting of the Finance, Committee was held at which the disens sion of this vote took place; otherwise I sbould have been able to explain to my hon, friend the reasons which induced me when I Acting Administrator of the Government last year to refer to the Secretary of State iusteat of the Council in the first place the application I received from the managers of this sohool. That reason is to be found in a dispatch of the Secretary of State of 10th November, 1879, on the subject of education, which had occupied the attention of the Colonial Office for some con- siderable time. As this dispatch has not been published I think it might be well to read two or three extracts for the information of my hon. friend- The The expenditure apon education from public funds is considerable, but the whole ground is far from covered, and for this reason if for no other it is essen. tial both to maintain the existing agencies (i.a., the Central School and the retaaluder of the Government. aystam) and also as far as possible to encouraga voluntary effort. The other extract is this:- I desire also that all grants proposed to be made in aid of other than Government schools may bo submitted to the Secretary of State for approval be- fore any promise is made. I thought it my duty, under the instructions contained in this dispatch, to refer to the Seore- tary of State the application received from the managers of the new school. The application for a grant-in-aid, which was for $14,400, I ac. cordingly referred to the Secretary of State with all information necessary on the subject, and in reply he said he had no objection to grant $5,000; bat on a further application by Bishop Raimondi to your Excellency, your Ex. cellency in Council decided it was desirable to increase the vote to $6,000. I see no ob. jection at all to the adoption in future of the course advocated by the hon, member of laying all votes and applications before the Council before they are sent to the Secretary of State, especially as we shall soon have a larger number of unofficial membora, I think there is no objection at all to that. His EXCELLENCY-None at all. I entirely agree with the hon. member that the standing as a general rule, & orders in force to regulate the proceedings of the Legislatures in other Crown Colonice should be introduced also in Hongkong, and that all votes of public money should bò for tứỡ futuro considered in the first instance in the recousti- ¡ tuted Legislative Council. Hou. F. STEWART -Ï un uot in a position t auswer the question pat to me by the bon, mom- bar (Mr. Johnson). St. Joseph's College was begun after I had finished my work in the Edu- cational Department, and I have had no opportu. nity of finding out what the opinion of the Por- tuguese coramunity may be with regard to the education given at St. Joseph's College. The motion for the approval of the votes was then pat and carried nem, con, NATURALISATION, Bills for the naturalisation of Lai Fong, Wong Shing, H. J. Rodrignes, and J. A. Car valho, were, on the motion of the ATTORNEY- GENERAL, seconded by the COLONIAL-SEČRM- TARY, read a first time. PIER AND WHARF CONSTRUCTION BILL PRIVATE BILL). Hon. F. B. Johnson-Sic, I ask leave to in- trodnee and read a first time an Ordinaune to authorise myself, as representing my firm, to con. struct certain piors and whurves in the harbour of Victoria. Hon. P. RYRIE-I have great pleasure id secouding, The Bill was read a first time. TRAMWAYS AMENDMENT ORDINANCE. On the motion of the Hon. F. B. JoHNSON, seconded by the Hou. P. RYRIE, a Bill for the amendment of the Tramways Ordinance, 1883, was read a first time, A QUESTION OF ORDER. Hoa. F. B. JOHNSON said he bad given notice to the clerk of Councils of his intention to ia. troduce an Ordinance, and to ask that it be readi a first time, to enable Mr. C. P. Chater to con. struct piers and wharves in the harbour. It appeared the notice had been sent to the olerk only the previons day, and a long discussion eusued as to whether under the standing orders the motion could be made at the present meeting. HIS EXCELLENCY said he intended to call a meeting of the Council next week, and, further, that one of the first steps he would take in the reconstituted Council would be to appoint a committee to revise the standing orders and to bring them into conformity with those prevailing in other colonias, He asked Mr. Johnson if the Bill could wait for a few days and be road at the next meeting. Icxcept, of course, in cases of urgency or of special instructions, H.Ms. Government, from H. Mon:

2026-05-24 02:44:33 · Baseline

View content

253

simply to register the conclusions of the Secretary of State, when proposals come before us with the authority of the Secretary of State involving the expenditure of publia mousy; there should be a distinct understanding that every member of this Council, oflleial or otherwise, should bo allowed to vote according to his convictions. I must say in reading the correspondence laid be- fore the Finance Committee it did appear to mo this proposal for a grant of $6,000 to St. Joseph's College came before the Secretary of State with the approval of the executive Government of the colony. I would submit, sir, with reference to this, that I think it would be a very great relief to yourself from that delicato aud flattering importunity with which I know our Rowan Catholic friends are se apt to make their proposals, publicly and privately, if you were to rafer all such applications in the first instance to the members of the Connoil. As regards the merits of the application itself, I am not prepar ed to offer any objection to the original vote of $5,000, set apart I believe by the Educational Department of the Government under the grant. in-aid system, but I do ses great reason to object to the extra voto of $1,000 added with the ap proval of the Secretary of State. Nothing. so far as I can see, in the letter of Bishop Rai- mondi to the Secretary of State justifies this increase in the graut. He is pleading on behalf of a wealthy corporation and cannot say he requires this money from any want of funds. When I say I do not object to this vote be mUSA it is proposed nuder the grant-in-aid system I wish to guard myself against expressing any opinion on that system. I consider grants-in- aid to denominational schools are all very well so long as the educational tost to be applied as the qualification for the grant has to be settled by the representatives of the ratepayers, who are supposed to be benefited by the grant, but it is a very different thing when that educational test is settled by what appones to me to be something in the nature of a con. oordat hetween the Governor of the Colony and an ecclesiastical hierarchy. I should like to ask my hon. friond opposita (Dr. Stewart), who probably knows mure about education in the colony than any other person, whether he is sace the large Portuguese community, who are the supposed beneficiaires of this grant, are entirely satisfied with the character of the education they receive from such institutions as St. Joseph's i College. In putting this quastion I am not ac- tuated by any desire to bring about a discussion ou grants-in-aid, but I wish to show good eanse why every grant of public maney in this colony should be made the subject of full aud froe discussion on the part of every member of this Council. I know, sir, you have said over and over again that you see desirous the repre- sentatives of the ratepayers should have control of the rooneys derived from taxation, aud I hope you will be able to give the Council some as- surabos to-day that in making votes of pablio fuads it shall always ha dona after free discussion in this Council, and not under the dictation of some anthority superior to us.

The COLONIAL SECRETAUT-Sir, I was not is the colony when the meeting of the Finance, Committee was held at which the disens sion of this vote took place; otherwise I sbould have been able to explain to my hon, friend the reasons which induced me when I Acting Administrator of the Government last year to refer to the Secretary of State iusteat of the Council in the first place the application I received from the managers of this sohool. That reason is to be found in a dispatch of the Secretary of State of 10th November, 1879, on the subject of education, which had occupied the attention of the Colonial Office for some con- siderable time. As this dispatch has not been published I think it might be well to read two or three extracts for the information of my hon. friend-

The

The expenditure apon education from public funds is considerable, but the whole ground is far from covered, and for this reason if for no other it is essen. tial both to maintain the existing agencies (i.a., the Central School and the retaaluder of the Government. aystam) and also as far as possible to encouraga voluntary effort.

The other extract is this:-

I desire also that all grants proposed to be made

in aid of other than Government schools may bo submitted to the Secretary of State for approval be- fore any promise is made.

I thought it my duty, under the instructions contained in this dispatch, to refer to the Seore- tary of State the application received from the managers of the new school. The application for a grant-in-aid, which was for $14,400, I ac. cordingly referred to the Secretary of State with all information necessary on the subject, and in reply he said he had no objection to grant $5,000; bat on a further application by Bishop Raimondi to your Excellency, your Ex. cellency in Council decided it was desirable

to increase the vote to $6,000. I see no ob. jection at all to the adoption in future of the course advocated by the hon, member of laying all votes and applications before the Council before they are sent to the Secretary of State, especially as we shall soon have a larger number of unofficial membora, I think there is no objection at all to that.

His EXCELLENCY-None at all. I entirely

agree with the hon. member that the standing as a general rule, &

orders in force to regulate the proceedings of the Legislatures in other Crown Colonice should be introduced also in Hongkong, and that all votes of public money should bò for tứỡ futuro considered in the first instance in the recousti-

¡ tuted Legislative Council.

Hou. F. STEWART -Ï un uot in a position t auswer the question pat to me by the bon, mom- bar (Mr. Johnson). St. Joseph's College was begun after I had finished my work in the Edu- cational Department, and I have had no opportu. nity of finding out what the opinion of the Por- tuguese coramunity may be with regard to the education given at St. Joseph's College.

The motion for the approval of the votes was then pat and carried nem, con,

NATURALISATION,

Bills for the naturalisation of Lai Fong, Wong Shing, H. J. Rodrignes, and J. A. Car valho, were, on the motion of the ATTORNEY- GENERAL, seconded by the COLONIAL-SEČRM- TARY, read a first time.

PIER AND WHARF CONSTRUCTION BILL PRIVATE BILL).

Hon. F. B. Johnson-Sic, I ask leave to in- trodnee and read a first time an Ordinaune to authorise myself, as representing my firm, to con. struct certain piors and whurves in the harbour of Victoria.

Hon. P. RYRIE-I have great pleasure id secouding,

The Bill was read a first time.

TRAMWAYS AMENDMENT ORDINANCE. On the motion of the Hon. F. B. JoHNSON, seconded by the Hou. P. RYRIE, a Bill for the amendment of the Tramways Ordinance, 1883, was read a first time,

A QUESTION OF ORDER. Hoa. F. B. JOHNSON said he bad given notice to the clerk of Councils of his intention to ia. troduce an Ordinance, and to ask that it be readi a first time, to enable Mr. C. P. Chater to con. struct piers and wharves in the harbour.

It appeared the notice had been sent to the olerk only the previons day, and a long discussion eusued as to whether under the standing orders the motion could be made at the present meeting.

HIS EXCELLENCY said he intended to call a meeting of the Council next week, and, further, that one of the first steps he would take in the reconstituted Council would be to appoint a committee to revise the standing orders and to bring them into conformity with those prevailing in other colonias, He asked Mr. Johnson if the Bill could wait for a few days and be road at the next meeting.

Icxcept, of course, in cases of urgency or of

special instructions,

H.Ms. Government,

from H.

Mon:

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